Legal Leaders Exchange - Podcast episode 30

In this episode of Legal Leaders Exchange, our Jennifer McIver is joined by Vincent Venturella, Associate Director of Technology Product Management at Wolters Kluwer ELM Solutions, to explore the transformative potential of agentic AI in legal operations. From humorous banana analogies to serious discussions about reshaping workflows, they unpack how AI agents are evolving from simple automation tools to collaborative digital teammates. Vince shares his vision for how agentic AI can revolutionize tasks like rate negotiation and invoice review, while Jen brings a candid perspective on the excitement and concerns surrounding this fast-moving technology.

Whether you're an AI skeptic or enthusiast, this episode offers practical insights and visionary thinking to help legal ops professionals prepare for the future.

Tune in to learn:

• How agentic AI differs from traditional automation and LLMs
• Why legal ops roles may shift from “doers” to “agent managers”
• Which workflows are ripe for AI transformation
• How to prepare your team for AI adoption through change management and vendor collaboration
• Why trusted partners like Wolters Kluwer are key to secure and scalable AI integration  

Be sure to follow Legal Leaders Exchange on:

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Transcript

Greg Corombos

Hello and welcome to episode 30 of Legal Leaders Exchange. Today, we're diving into one of the most exciting, and slightly intimidating, frontiers in legal operations, agentic AI. Joining us are Jen McIver, who brings her signature mix of curiosity and candor, and Vince Venturella, Associate Director of Technology Product Management at Wolters, Kluwer ELM Solutions. Vince is a self-proclaimed AI enthusiast, already dreaming up the next generation of digital teammates. In this episode, Jen and Vince explore how agentic AI is reshaping legal ops, not just by automating tasks, but by introducing AI agents that can research, act, and collaborate with humans from rate negotiations to invoice review, they unpack how these tools can shift our roles from doing the work to managing the agents that can do it for us. Jen and Vince, thank you for being here.

Jennifer McIver

Thank you, Greg. Today we're diving into the fast-evolving world of AI, specifically agentic AI, and what it really means for legal operations, whether that's new efficiencies or strategic shifts. Now, personally, I'm a mixed bag of thoughts on this topic – excited, but a little bit skeptical and largely intimidated. Vince, you're not only keeping up with today's AI tools, but you're actually already shaping ideas about what's coming next. Now, we've had a lot of conversations, and you've really opened my eyes to the possibilities, and you've turned me a little bit away from that intimidated. And I'm really looking forward to hearing your thoughts today and having you share your thoughts with others today in order to get this out and to help legal operations move to that next level. So thank you for being here, and I'm really excited to have you just give us all your wildest dreams today.

Vincent Venturella

Well, thank you very much, Jen. I'm very excited to be here. Realistically, there's nothing to be intimidated about. We're just experiencing the largest technological change in the history of humanity since the creation of fire. I don't understand why we'd be intimidated. It seems completely reasonable to me.

Jennifer McIver

I love that. It might have to do with the fact that a lot of us didn't come up through the tech. I mean, I was an attorney who didn't really even know that I knew how to use technology, let alone go into legal technology and maybe teach other people how to use technology. And I feel like sometimes there's a lot of folks that have that imposter syndrome as they're working in legal operations, again, not moving up through the tech world. So, I think that's where, at least for me, that intimidation comes from.

Vincent Venturella

Well, don't worry if our listeners are in the same place. By the time we're done today, we're going to put their fears to rest. It is very exciting. There's going to be change. Of course, that's just the world. Life is change. But I think this bodes very well for the legal operations industry, for legal in general, and I think we're just going to see a lot of really amazing technologies roll out over the next couple of years that change a lot of the way we work for the better.

Jennifer McIver

I like that, and I think that just puts me at ease a little bit. Let's start where we are today. How would you describe the current state of AI in legal operations.

Vincent Venturella

I think we have to set a little groundwork here of what's going on with AI in general. Because, boy, it does, it rapidly changes. I'm deep in this world. This is my daily life. And I have to listen to a couple of podcasts every day about what's happened that day in AI, because it evolves and moves that quickly. This is the fastest technology in history to ever reach a 50% household population penetration, so that's a real marker. What we've seen since in the past six to nine months is the explosion of what we would think of as research capabilities – or deep research capabilities, wide research, you'll hear this in a lot of different ways, a lot of different people doing these things. But effectively, probably almost every listener is familiar with something like ChatGPT. You type in a question, it gives you an answer, right? Pretty straightforward. That's how we were all introduced to this thing. But what has evolved since then is using these technologies, these LLMs or large language models, in a lot more complex ways. Research modes allow the model to think more deeply, to reconsider its answers and to provide very detailed, lengthy responses to things. More on that and how it impacts legal operations later. Whereas the newest kid on the block, which is the agents or agentic AI, really came about in basically the very beginning of this year, and already we're seeing tremendous advancement. Agents use the three pillars of answering questions, doing research and using tools. That just means it can click something on your screen or complete an action in a program on your computer to basically do the work that a person would do, even if that normally requires, say, accessing multiple applications through the process or something. So, agents are there to carry something out. Think about it as the simplest case. You want to order a pizza or add or create a grocery cart at your local grocery store. You could have the agent do your weekly grocery shopping. That's kind of the simplest explanation. The more complicated thing is, hey, agent, go build me an entire website for this new thing I'm launching. And it can go do that.

Jennifer McIver

Question for you: do you think the agent could take care of my banana issue, though? My bananas have to be perfect. Or do you think that's where we're still going to need a little bit of that human oversight to make sure there's no brown on the skin of my banana peel?

Vincent Venturella

Very picky about your bananas. That's funny. The only time I buy bananas in this house is for the dogs. We give bananas to our dogs and they don't really care. The squishier, the better. They're a fan. But you know, you're exactly right. You've put your finger on an excellent point. These agents, although they are capable of acting autonomously, they are not autonomous in themselves completely. They are not people replacements, at least not yet. Certainly, that's where the technology is pushing, to be able to do more and more of what the human does, but the more novel, complex or bespoke the task, the less likely the agent is able to do it without human intervention. And in fact, in many cases, with these agents, exactly as you just said, they're going to need to come check with you, say, Hey, I did this. How's this look? Or, Hey, I'm stuck on this. What should I do here? So on and so forth. So it's very much going to be a partnership. And that's where I see the state of the industry as a whole going right now, is a lot of our jobs are going to transition from jobs where we do the thing, whatever the thing is, to we are managing agents who scale infinitely and do the thing. And it frees us up to then focus on other value-added tasks. So, the agents handle the rote, repetitive elements, check with us every so often when they run into a problem, and we're focusing on the novel, the bespoke, the complex, the high value for our organizations. That's really how I think it goes.

Jennifer McIver

Vince, we both work for ELM Solutions, but I'm going to take a little bit of a legal ops left turn on this one. To me, it's simple for me to think about it with the contract management type of scenario. And I kind of go back to, AI has been there. There's been so many point solutions for CLMs that are going to either do the initial review of the contract or they're going to go in and help you draft the contract. I feel like those – though correct me if I'm wrong – that's where the traditional LLMs were coming in place, where they were more of that kind of single, just do that one task, type of tool. Then I feel like legal ops was definitely starting to do other things, like try to do a little bit more chat bot. They were trying to really go into the next, but I feel like that's almost going to get drowned out now with the use of agents to be able to tie everything together. Am I really off-base on that?

Vincent Venturella

No, I think you're exactly right. One of the things that's important to understand here is that there are a lot of entrants, a lot of people in this space, a lot of money going in here, a lot of companies creating solutions, both big and small. Certainly, we’re part of this. You mentioned the contract thing. There is a lot of focus on the practice of law right now, because there is a lot of overlap between many traditional tasks in the practice of law and what these LLMs are really good at. Okay, now, when I say “really good at”, that doesn't mean perfect. And that's really important. Later on, we can talk about risks or stuff like that. But again, these are human-dependent systems still, but if you think about legal work, like doing research, like going and looking at past precedents, statutes, decisions, anything like that, that's something that the LLM is going to excel at and be able to produce, especially with the new research capabilities. Or if you're talking about taking multi-step workflows with a contract, bringing it to multiple people, reviewing accordingly, making recommendations that adhere better to your company standards, all those kinds of things. That's where something like an agent LLM is going to be really successful. And there is a lot of differences between Copilot or GPT that a lot of people listening to this are probably familiar with, and what these newer agents and these new technologies are capable of.

Jennifer McIver

So let's talk a little bit about jobs. I even go back a couple years ago when everybody was just like, is it going to take away the need for associates? Is it going to take the need away from any sort of staffing? So, when you start talking about agentic AI and doing the things rather than just, actually doing the things, I'm just curious what does that do to a legal ops team that might already be struggling to keep their head count? Is that going to be something that you're now going to see, a loss of head count, agents are just going to take care of it? or do you think that there's going to be any other kind of shift?

Vincent Venturella

It's a good question. I want to start with a bit of humility. And what I mean by that is, I do want to say that nobody knows what the future holds. I don't have a crystal ball. Those kinds of superpowers are not in my purview. But what I can say is that, in my estimation, as I've said, these agents, and this will probably be true for least a couple years, are going to be human-dependent things. And so, what’s going to happen is AI is going to potentially shift roles rather than eliminate them. Now, that's not to say there might not be some staffing adjustments. Certain departments might hire fewer people in the future, or something like that. Or maybe they shed some small percentage of their workforce. But I really don't think that large scale job loss or something like that, especially within the legal world, is actually the future. I think, instead, what the future is, is these junior staff and paralegals and people like this, especially within legal and legal operations, are going to become agent managers, as I said earlier. They're going to be the people who are leading the way on managing these agents, answering their questions, helping them when they run into failure states, and providing all this great productivity and gain for the legal ops department and legal writ large. And are there going to be a couple of bad actors out there who just, wholesale, start cutting staff? I'm sure there will. There's always people who are short-sighted in the world. But I don't think that's a successful plan. I think what's actually going to happen is people will just do more work. And as historical precedent, I would like to go ahead and cite literally every technological advancement that has ever happened in the history of mankind. Our productivity gains over the past century have been immense. If you look at what a legal department is capable of now versus what it was capable of, work-wise, 50 years ago it's night and day. And what did we do? Are we all working three day weeks? I mean, I'd love it if that was the case, that'd be great. I'll sign up for that. But no, there's always more work to do. And every legal department I've ever talked to, every legal ops leader I've ever spoken with, or legal leader says, Boy, there's so much more we want to do, but we just don't have the time and the staff. That's the story over and over again. And so, what's going to happen is those rote tasks that are soaking up a bunch of time out of legal operations, now get passed over to the agents and all of that other work that these ops departments and these legal departments have dreamed of being able to do now becomes possible.

Jennifer McIver

Vince, you really hit something here. You made the comment – and I wrote it down a second ago, and then you just came back to it. And that is, you really want to do it, the stuff I haven't been able to get to. And quite often for me, going back several years when I was implementing, for example, e-billing solutions. So many times, it was always like, we really want to take the next step, but we just don't have time to do it today. We want to get there. We see that we can get there, but we just don't have time. So, my question to you on that is: listeners today are listening to this going, This sounds great. I don't know where to get started. I don't know what my next step would be. So, if you were talking to the head of legal ops team today that maybe has dabbled but is really ready to take the next step, what do you think they should do to prepare for more of that AI-driven future and for agentic AI?

Vincent Venturella

This is such a good question. How do we get ourselves ready for what's going to be a period of change, potentially in a lot of these roles. And my answer is, a lot of the same techniques we've always looked at and focused on with change management are going to be valuable here again. So, familiarize yourself with the technology. Get in there, play around with some Claude or some GPT or something like that. Understand what these agents can do. Most of the stuff you can utilize now, even on the free solutions so you don't have to go, spend money per month to access these. A lot of these things are just kind of out there with limitations on how often you can use them. But I don't think you're probably trying to design a whole new software program or something in your off time. My number one thing, I would say, is get familiar with this technology. Get familiar with how to use it, how it works, what its limitations are, and where it makes errors. Because, again, it's not perfect. The bar we're trying to meet is not perfect. It's Is it as good as the average human? I work with a lot of humans. They make a lot of mistakes every day. That's why we all work together and check each other's work, and catch things. The computer is going to do the same thing. And so it's not as though we can just trust it to be some perfect answering machine. So, get familiar with it, both its strengths and its weaknesses, how to properly prompt it, how to get the best results from it, how to utilize these tools, and so on and so forth. I think that's number one. Number two is when you're thinking about it, within your organization, where you want to apply some of these technologies? My advice would be to focus in on a few key workflows and look at how you can make real headway with these AI tools, these agents, whatever, in those particular workflows. Don't try to go wide and let's just adopt 17 of these all at once. That's too much change. It's the same as any change management process. You focus, you figure out the high value ones. You make the change. You bring people along.

Jennifer McIver

What about using your current vendors? I know a lot are seeing the shiny objects out there and are saying, we need to go talk to somebody new. What is your take on having conversations? And have you had that with some of our clients here at Wolters Kluwer, where we can talk a little bit about where we're going, and maybe help teams that just don't know how to get started?

Vincent Venturella

I think you've just hit on probably what is going to be the biggest thing with the adoption of this technology in general. When I talk to people right now and I ask them, Hey, what have you tried? Because I'm always having conversations with people about AI, and I say, What have you tried? What have you used? The most common response is at home, they probably put a question or two in a GPT just to get an answer out of it. And at work, they use Copilot. Why do they use copilot at work? Well, because it's from Microsoft. And their IT and InfoSec and groups within their company trust Microsoft. I do think that there is absolutely going to be a bias here towards, for your organization, towards larger, more trusted partners. And I will openly admit I am pretty biased myself towards Wolters Kluwer. We've only been around for 190 years, so, you know, we got a little bit of experience under our belt. But my point is, is that that's why we're pushing hard to develop a lot of these solutions and make sure that we can be that trusted partner for their InfoSec and IT groups. We have a very large safety and security group, our AI safety framework, all that kind of thing. So, you know, we've put all of those things into place. And I do think there's going to be some challenge to trying to go out and grab some fly-by-night that might disappear tomorrow. When I look at the spaces that we're focused on, we as Wolters Kluwer ELM, we're really focused in on the practice of law stuff. What do I mean by that? We're not doing a tool to help you process your contracts or create NDAs or something like that. There are other parts of WK that are working on content, but not us. We're working on things like creating agents that help you with yearly rate negotiation, with invoice review, agents to go review the invoices. I don't know a single attorney that loves reviewing invoices, never met one.

Jennifer McIver

I love this. This is where we're moving into your wildest dreams, right?

Vincent Venturella

That's right. I think that when we look at stuff like that, that's what we're researching right now, being able to focus in on those kinds of things, like being better at vendor management, being better at invoice processing and review. That's broadly how we're thinking about it. And we're thinking about, how can agents improve that process, handle the more basic, rote, repetitive work, and allow the people to focus on the higher value tasks?

Jennifer McIver

So let's talk about it. Let's go in deeper with one, whether it's rate negotiations or vendor selection. Vince, if you could build out a workflow that uses agent tech AI, what would it look like? Where would it be taking legal operations

Vincent Venturella

I'll talk about one that's very near and dear and close to my heart. We could deep dive a couple of these. Gosh, Jen, we could just go for the next hour and talk about my wildest dreams, or what I want to do, and what we're researching and stuff like that. But we'll keep it a little tighter. The reality is, let's talk about rate negotiation. So, Jen, I spent about 10 years in an actual legal operations department before I came here, and rate negotiation was something that was centralized within our unit. But obviously we weren't the ones approving the rates. We were just kind of handling the logistics of the process. And boy, the logistics of this! Spreadsheets coming, spreadsheets going, emails everywhere, individual leaders signing off. Just a long, messy process.

Jennifer McIver

Yeah, even if you put it into technology, you still have to split it out. You still have to ship it to different people for approval. You still have to go back to the firm. So even with the technology, I think there's good help out there, but it's still that back and forth.

Vincent Venturella

That's right. This is an area where we're looking at agents, and this is one where I think agents can make a huge deal. Why not let an agent handle a lot of that rote communication? It tells the law firms, this is time for your yearly, or biannual or whatever it is, rate adjustments. Please put in any change requests you have here. Please note the company has set down a limit of this percentage. If you think you have an exception, you may submit that exception and it will be reviewed. You let the agent collect all of that information. It takes it back to all the appropriate leaders. The agent can use email and Outlook and all those things, same as anything else. Let it go back and split up those spreadsheets, send to the individual leaders, have them approve, populate out the exceptions. Maybe it could even review some of the exception requests already and make a recommendation, and then collect all that, take any sort of approvals back to the firm, take anything that's been rejected back to the firm, and then maybe repeat a couple of times. It's just shuttling this information around, managing it to the point where it's just coming to the human to check on the things, hey, is this okay? Here's what we collected, so on and so forth. I think when you look at something like that, you can really see just how powerful that kind of a tool would be, right?

Jennifer McIver

Absolutely. I talk a lot, whether it's with our clients or at industry events, about vendor management, just holistically. And a lot of corporate legal departments are wanting to have more conversations with their outside counsel, but they can't. And when I say more conversations, I mean the good conversations, the value conversations. But they can't because they're so busy doing the rate negotiations, or that's so high at administrative burden that to get into that meat of those good conversations, you just don't get there. So, this is where I get excited, Vince. This is where you make a believer out of me. This is where I'm like, Okay, I'm on board. We'll come back to more of your wildest dreams. But where I go want to go with this is, you just made me a believer. But I think that there's a lot of challenges in legal operations teams making, whether it's the rest of their legal team or their CLO or their GC, the believers. Because historically, with something like rate negotiation, we're special here in legal. We’ve got to talk to people, we have the relationships. How could this actually work? What are your thoughts on those challenges and getting through those?

Vincent Venturella

This is such a good question. I agree with this, and it's very real. Legal has always been bespoke, different, standout, idiosyncratic, which is what I liked. That's why I started working with a legal group and legal ops. I thought it was really fun and interesting because you are always faced with unique challenges. But ultimately, I think with these kinds of changes, you're going to have to go and flank the problem. I don't think there's any legal ops lawyer who's just going to sit there and say, hey, everyone in the legal department, this is what we're doing now. And everybody's just like, Okay, well, they spoke. That's not what's going to happen. I think you’ve got to go flank it. So you gotta start by getting the support from your GC, your senior legal leaders. That we can make real changes here that will let us focus on higher value tasks. If we can use AI as a force multiplier, if we can allow our teams to do 10 times as much work with the same head count, that's a pretty good sales pitch for leadership. Leadership is going to like that pitch, right? But you can't stop there, because I think there's a top-down element there. They've got to be on board. And the other thing you’ve got to do is, you’ve got to find your advocates. I guarantee you, within every legal ops or legal department around here, there's a couple of AI-heads like me. There are some people who are just into this technology and think it's really cool, and believe in it and think it can do good things. Figure out who those people are, who are going to be your zealous advocates, and work with them. And through those explorations of one to two high impact initiatives that have clear ROI, bring those people on board and then let them proselytize to the rest of the organization. Let them be the vanguard. And if you've got support both brewing at the at the user level, where they're like – this is great, I am loving this, I have deleted all of this annoying work, and I'm now just doing the things I like – if that's what they're hearing their coworkers say, and at the same time, the GC and the other senior people in the organization are saying this is a priority and where we're going, boom. Now you're going to get there in a good way. That's how I think about it.

Jennifer McIver

And I'll add that we'll just let them bring Vince in-house to make them a believer and get them excited the way that you're doing with me right now. Okay, so we talked about rate negotiations. I want to give you time, Vince, before we wrap up, to do one more wildest dream. If you could just go, whoo, I would love to get to this point, and this would be a game changer, what else would it be?

Vincent Venturella

Yeah, I mean, it's invoice review. It's completely invoice review. Invoice review is a major task. It's very challenging for people. I always tell the story of, I ran a report once that showed how long attorneys were looking at invoices. That is to say how long they spent reviewing them. The average is two seconds. So, I don't think it'll probably do any detailed review. I don't know, maybe they're like Data from Star Trek and they can just read really fast. I don't know. But when you look at something like what invoice review is and what it's asking of the human, I think it's just so better aligned to something like an agent, where an invoice shows up the agent reviews it, uses the billing guidelines of the client, whatever their legal services agreement is, reviews the invoice, makes adjustments, and then sends it to the attorney and just says, this is what I did, summarizes it. You can imagine an invoice AI summary that just says here's what changed, here's what they did, here's how much of this work was done, here's how much got adjusted, here's what was breaking, and here's why, bing, bing, bing, bing. And then the human just goes, Great, approved.

Jennifer McIver

So going just beyond the actual flags, where we flag to death.

Vincent Venturella

Yes, a little bit more. I think we can take the next step. And I do think, excitingly, we're on the edge of that. I think that's very doable. But I don't want to people to feel like it's limited. I think the important part to understand is this is a really rapidly advancing area of technology. In the seven months, which is a crazy thing to say, since their introduction, they've become 10 times more capable than when they were initially launched. And we at Wolters Kluwer are really looking very carefully at them. Both what can they do, how can we bring this in in a way that creates real value for the users as well as the organization? And I think you have to have both. That's how we think about this. I can't just do something that makes the user life alone better. We have to also create value for the organization. So, we're attacking from both sides and I'm pretty excited. There's a lot of capability here. Stay tuned. Maybe I'll come back in a couple months, and we'll talk about what we built and where our research is.

Jennifer McIver

I almost think we have to do that, because in our conversations not too many months ago, I feel like we weren't where we are today. So, I think we might have to take you up on that, I really do. Thank you for sharing your take on where AI is now and where it's headed. And I hope that others are getting as excited as I am. The one thing I know I'm horrible at, Vince, is keeping up with it, keeping up with technology. And you mentioned early on that you listened to several podcasts today, I'm curious if you have any recommendations for those that maybe aren't quite as in-depth as you are with AI, but maybe someone like myself, or someone between you and I when it comes to knowledge and geekiness, if you just have any thoughts or ideas of what podcasts or where to go and find information.

Vincent Venturella

Well, other than this wonderful podcast, of course, where we're providing great information. But beyond, that? Yeah, sure, if people are interested in AI and this world as it continues to evolve, one of my favorites is only once a week, so it's not a huge commitment, is a podcast called Hard Fork, which is from a New York Times columnist, as well as the owner and proprietor of Platformer. They're two guys who are very into technology and where everything's going. They make it very accessible. They are reporters as their original role, and it's just a really great podcast. So that's probably where I'd tell you to go.

Jennifer McIver

Reporter-turned-AI, that works for me because that could be close to attorney-turned-AI. I think I might have to take you up and start listening to that, Vince, so thank you for that that information. Do you have any last thoughts or insights that you'd like to share with those listening today before we wrap up and say goodbye?

Vincent Venturella

My final thought really does return back to where I started, which is, this is a very, very, very powerful technology. I really do mean, it's like we're inventing fire again for the human race. And that's going to be scary. That's going to be a lot of change. It's easy to get intimidated, but my honest answer is, the more you can familiarize yourself with these tools, get to know them, become proficient in them, the better it is for you in your daily life and your work, and how productive you can be in removing frustrations and things like that. In the end, there's no reason to be scared. These technologies can work for us if we if we learn them and work with them. And I think in the end, it's going to be very positive in how it transforms work for the better. In the same way, there was a time 500 years ago when if you wanted a book, you had to have a human sit down and literally write the entire book for you, a copy of the book, by hand. And now, if I want a book, I just can get a digital copy of it in seconds. That's a great world to live in. I'm happy I can read a bunch of books on my iPad or whatever, or my Kindle. That's a great world. And I think that it's much the same here. It can be a bit scary or intimidating at the start, but in the end, it's going to be very positive.

Jennifer McIver

You had me there. You had me there, until you said reading books on the Kindle or the iPad. And then I went No! I am such a page-turner person, Vince, I like the physical books still. It's just something about the feeling of it. So, I hope that doesn't mean that I'm not going to move forward with technology.

Vincent Venturella

No, no, it's easier to get the physical books too. How about that? Somebody's not hand writing all the physical books, either. So that's still technological advancement that's positive. You're absolutely right. Go, printing press!

Jennifer McIver

Well, thank you very much, Vince. It's been really great, and I do look forward to having another conversation with you here soon. Who knows how soon that will be? Because things seem to be moving really fast.

Vincent Venturella

Absolutely, no. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.

Greg Corombos

And that brings us to the end of another episode of Legal Leaders Exchange. Jen and Vince, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your insights into the future of agentic AI in legal operations. To our audience, thank you all for listening. We look forward to having you with us next time as we continue to explore the latest trends and innovations in legal ops. Legal Leaders Exchange is hosted by Wolters Kluwer ELM Solutions, the market leading provider of enterprise legal spend and matter management, and legal analytics solutions. For more information and additional guidance, please visit wolterskluwer.com or call 713-572-3282. Please join us for future podcasts on optimizing legal operations and achieving your legal and business goals.