Legal Leaders Exchange - Podcast episode 32

In this episode of Legal Leaders Exchange, host Jennifer McIver of ELM Solutions sits down with two industry thought leaders: Carlos Gámez, Strategic Program Director at Wolters Kluwer Legal & Regulatory, and Sinéad Kenny, Director of Customer Insights at Brightflag. Together, they explore the defining trends that shaped legal operations in 2025 and share bold predictions for 2026. From peer-to-peer collaboration and data transparency to the transformative role of AI, this conversation offers a candid look at how legal teams are evolving to become strategic business partners.

The discussion goes beyond technology to examine mindset shifts, the growing appetite for openness among corporate legal departments, and the creative ways law firms and legal ops teams are redefining value. Whether you’re curious about agentic AI, the future of KPIs, or how collaboration is reshaping the legal ecosystem, this episode is packed with insights to help you prepare for what’s next.

What you’ll learn in this episode:

• Why 2025 was the year of peer collaboration—and what that means for legal innovation.
• How AI is enabling scale and expanding access to legal services.
• The critical role of data literacy and transparency in driving strategic decisions.
• Practical steps legal ops leaders should take now to stay ahead in 2026.
• Predictions on technology adoption and the evolving law firm–corporate legal partnership.   

Be sure to follow Legal Leaders Exchange on:

Apple Podcast | Spotify | Audible | iHeart Radio

Transcript

Greg Corombos

Hello and welcome to the 32nd episode of Legal Leaders Exchange. In this session, "Collaboration, Data, and AI: 2025 Trends and 2026 Predictions," Jen McIver is joined by Carlos Gámez, Strategic Program Director at Wolters Kluwer Legal & Regulatory, and Sinéad Kenny, Director of Customer Insights at Brightflag. The conversation begins with a lighthearted look at personal passions, such as BBQ rib rubs and the "Motley Accruals" band, before transitioning to industry topics. They reflect on the defining trends that dominated legal operations in 2025, from the surge in peer-to-peer collaboration and the rise of agentic AI, to the evolving partnership between law firms and corporate legal departments. Join us as they share expert insights on these trends and their thoughts and predictions for the legal industry in 2026.

Jennifer McIver

Thank you, Greg, and welcome Carlos and Sinéad. I recently published a two-part article in our ELM Insider on LinkedIn about key topics and trends that I discussed with legal operation professionals in 2025 throughout this year, my thoughts and predictions about 2026, and things like peer collaboration, the continued shift towards legal becoming a strategic business partner, data and transparency, and of course – I can't not say it – the use and the adoption of AI was absolutely at the top of the list. So I thought it would be really great to chat with the two of you today as industry leaders yourselves, who have also had the opportunity to meet with legal teams and to see how some of these topics have played out in your conversations. But before I do so, I really want to start out the conversation with a few curiosities that I have about the each of you. So I'm going to start with you, Carlos, I might have been looking at a few of your posts on LinkedIn, and one that really hit me was maybe not the most “thought leadership” post in the world, but you had a picture of a rib rub on Thanksgiving. And that's a seasoning for those listening. But I'm just kind of curious, are you the master of the barbecue? And is that your thing on Thanksgiving is to get out the barbecue and go for it?

Carlos Gámez

I actually posted that because I was just at a conference in Austin, Texas, in November. One of the perks of the conference, we created our own rib rug. The post was actually a typical Thanksgiving post appreciating, I've been in the industry for about 15 years, made a lot of friends in the industry. So, it was just an appreciation. It was an insider joke, because we, a couple of us, said that we were going to post during the holidays and kind of share our cooking. My brisket was not shareable. I did not publicly post it, so I'm definitely not a master.

Jennifer McIver

The seasoning was great, and it was a pure collaboration.

Carlos Gámez

Yeah, the seasoning was great, the brisket, not so much.

Jennifer McIver

That's fair, and thanks for being a little vulnerable. I like that. That's what we need on a podcast, especially towards the holidays. So Sinéad, I've actually had this question for a while now, so I am so excited to have you on today. The Motley Accruals: what is this and what is your musical talent that goes with the Motley Accruals?

Sinéad Kenny

Well, I'm not so sure you could call a musical talent. I sing, but basically, in Brightflag, we have a kick off every year where we all come together in Dublin. It's brilliant fun. About three years ago – there’s a number of really, really talented musicians in Brightflag, and I'm more of a chorus member myself – but one of them who gigs and plays the guitar, he felt that there was enough there to get a band together. And so, I think about 15 of us come together. There's multiple guitars, bass, electric and trad Irish instruments as well. There's people from all over the world that bring their unique instruments. So, we all do maybe an hour where we sing different songs. And I love it. It's so much fun. You get to know people from different parts of the business. I actually don't know who came up with the name. I can't remember, but we were actually a crew. Yeah, it's excellent. It's right on point for what we focus in on. And yeah, we're going to do it again next month in Dublin. The set list is a secret, but everyone has good fun, and it's a great way to hear people's talents.

Jennifer McIver

I love this. I mean, creating seasoning mixes, creating musical shows together, or jam sessions. I think I'm going to call it a jam session. I think that's just a way that we collaborate with each other, and that really does get us to a good first topic. For me, it seemed like 2025 was the year of peer collaboration. Now, we always have events. We always have CLOC and we have Running Legal Like a Business. Now, when I look at peer collaboration, I even think about, I know a client of ours, DHL, held their own AI Innovation Summit to share the work that they've done with AI and how they've moved it through the business. And I think that that's just proving invaluable right now for legal operations teams. And so, Sinéad, I'm curious: you've spent a lot of time providing insights to legal ops teams in your role, and undoubtedly, you've gathered a lot of information during conversations and at events that you've attended. How involved, do you think, are corporate legal departments right now in peer to peer collaboration across legal departments? And what impact does that have on their innovation and problem solving?

Sinéad Kenny

Yeah, I've been with Brightflag for almost 10 years, and I think, particularly in the last maybe four or five years, I've seen a real acceleration of the appetite for peer collaboration. And from our context, obviously, you mentioned round tables, conferences. We were both in London last month where fantastic insights were shared. Everybody wins when people are sharing what works well, what doesn't work so well. At Brightflag, we've strongly believed in it. For a number of years, we've released the legal ops compensation report, the Am Law rate benchmarks. I think that more and more corporate legal teams are so hungry for that type of information because a lot of the time they're a little bit in the dark. They don't really know what others are doing, what good looks like. So, at Brightflag, we strongly believe the more that we can empower them with information, and I think that's industry-wide, the better off everybody is. So, to answer your question, Jen, I think there's more and more appetite for it. And the impact is huge. It enables people to get a better sense of where they are and where they should go next. And it's so important.

Jennifer McIver

Are you seeing Sinéad trends at all in, I know Wolters Kluwer, Brightflag, and a lot of other consultants and other legal tech companies, we're all out there sharing our stuff and we're collaborating. Are you seeing trends and more openness of the actual client-to-client sharing, where legal teams are getting on, whether it's a webinar or an event, and really getting into not just that high level but the actual details of what they're doing and how they're doing it.

Sinéad Kenny

Yeah, absolutely. Just from my personal perspective, we hold customer meetups where people really, really share, here's what really worked, and here's the lessons learned. And, yeah, there's a real eagerness for that. Another thing that we do that is incredibly beneficial, and we actually just appointed a head of community, Anna Richards, with huge experience. Her focus is going to be driving even just, legal ops dinners. That's so good to be able to sit down and be really open and transparent. And that's where I see the real impact of that, and it's only going to, the fact that we now have a head of community, that just shows we're really invested in that. Because it makes a difference, and it has a massive impact. So, yeah, I think people are more and more open. They're far more open to share, I think, than afraid to share the information. If that makes sense. It's like everybody benefits. Particularly, what I love to see is somebody who's new to the space of legal ops, because a lot of the time they are a team of one. So, if you can go to a dinner, a conference, whatever – conferences have a price tag sometimes. So even just going to a community dinner, you're going to learn something. You're going to get a takeaway that you can bring into your job the next day. That's an incredible thing to do. And I think because there's such a benefit, people are much more open to being open and helping others.

Jennifer McIver

I think what I find really fun, too, is when people get a little bit more vulnerable, kind of like Carlos did earlier talking about the brisket, and they share what hasn't worked. And I think that that is key, being willing to say, gosh, we have failed at this and I think we know why and we're going to move forward. But I also think that that's a really interesting piece of that puzzle, Carlos, from a strategic transformation vantage point. I mean, you're really out there. You're doing some work here at Wolters Kluwer. How would you describe the appetite for peer collaboration amongst the legal leaders? Do you see any increase in proactivity, seeking out opportunity? And what do you see as the biggest motivator right now as you're out and having conversations?

Carlos Gámez

Definitely, collaboration is increasing. I see it in multiple flavors. First off, there is more information out there. So there is the possibility for self-identification. Law firms have more information to validate and benchmark against other firms, information from companies like Brightflag, and validate that they are still comparable to the firms that they've traditionally benchmarked against in terms of practice-by-practice and that sort of thing. There's more cooperation, they're frenemies. And there's more of that going on, there's a lot more mergers and lateral hiring. And all that is, at the industry level, and again, enabled by data transparency and the fact that law firms can self-identify and compare. But there's also, from a product development standpoint, we're seeing a lot more co-development from a lot of the AI companies that are out there, are in there with the law firms. They're actually participating in the transformation efforts with law firms. They are creating the workflows. They are working hand in hand with legal engineers, and law firms are hiring more legal engineers. So, there's that collaboration going on between the legal industry and the law firms, and then there's also collaboration between the law firms and the legal departments, their customers. You're seeing product launches like companies like Legora, Harvey, they are launching new products, kind of like the HighQ 2.0, of the next version of collaboration portals. And you're going to start seeing more of that, and you're starting to see more of the next generation of law firms, so there's more of that. So, collaboration is front and center. There's data transparency, there's more cooperation, more frenemies. There is collaboration between product development and the customers, and there is more collaboration between the end clients, the corporate legal department and the service providers. At the end of the day, it is a very different environment. It's an ecosystem that is more amenable to cooperation. And that is very different from when I was practicing law 20 years ago, and how we operated, where my first competitor was sitting in the office next to mine.

Jennifer McIver

So, as we're talking about coopetition or frenemies, for me, it's always thinking about law firms and legal operations teams. You know, sometimes you almost think that they're on opposite sides of the ecosystem and somewhat in that realm. And I'm starting to think about, as I was having a lot of conversations this year, a lot of the shift of legal as a strategic partner to the business came up. And a lot of the legal ops teams were really starting to get more involved with their law firms. I thought that was really interesting. And data sharing. Carlos, you mentioned data, I know even at Wolters Kluwer ELM Solutions, we're doing LegalVIEW DynamicInsights. That is a platform that's actually going to both law firms and legal operations teams, so now both have real time access to rate information. It's really, really starting to have impact on different conversations. And so I think when we're talking about that, Carlos, and we're talking about really having those communications, I think that is where that shift is coming from now. Sinéad, I know you work a lot with GCs to make sure they're getting fair prices for legal services, really talking about that work with law firms and more value from outside counsel. Do you find that teams, though, actually legal teams and maybe even law firms are defining value in the same way, and maybe what priorities are driving that value when you're having those conversations?

Sinéad Kenny

I love your point, Jen, about sometimes it can look combative, but it's not. The partnership between a law firm and a corporate legal team, it's a very special one. It's very important that it functions in the right way. And transparency and openness, they're key ingredients for a successful partnership. You mentioned GCs and the word “value.” What I've observed over the years is all corporate legal teams will have different goals depending on their business. But one universal value, I think, particularly for GCs, is they just want to get good value for money and a good outcome. And that doesn't always mean going, in actual fact, a lot of the time, it doesn't mean going to the cheapest firm. It means going to the firm that is going to provide you with the best outcome. And when I say provide you, ultimately, the legal team are working for the business. It's the outcome and the impact for the business that's most important. So, I think that's one universal goal, is they want to instruct a firm safe in the knowledge that ultimately what they're going to get as a delivery is going to be top class. Obviously, cost is an important component to that, because law firms fail by the hour, and sometimes they can be very expensive. So, it's not going to go away. It's still an important component of the overall value from outside council. But ultimately, they want to get the best outcome for it, for their business. And one thing I've observed in terms of how they do that, is being open and transparent with their law firms. One thing that we do a lot with our customers, and so many customers now are on board with this and are coming to us eager to do it, is have, at least annually with their top firms, they're going to a vendor scorecard. And it's going to have where they're doing a really good job and what the corporate legal team really value about what they do, and then areas where they need to improve. And that can be either qualitative or quantitative, there's so many different metrics that you can measure a law firm on. But I think a key step to get into that ultimate goal of good outcomes is being transparent with your law firms and being open about what's working and what needs to shift. And again, kind of similar to the point earlier about people being open to sharing amongst each other in the corporate legal space, I think corporate legal teams are far more open now to having those conversations. I've seen it in outside council guidelines. We're going to have a relationship meeting. Here are the metrics we're going to track. They're setting that expectation up front, and that's only good for everybody involved, for the corporate legal team and the law firm.

Jennifer McIver

And I think what I find interesting is – we had our Amplify conference recently. It's our annual user conference. We actually did a panel. I moderated a panel. We called it the Partnership Equation. And the great thing was listening to different ways that corporate legal departments and law firms are creating that partnership. And on that panel, we had somebody from the law firm side. We also had folks from the corporate legal side, and even things like where they had a law firm day, or law firm learning day, and they're inviting law firms into their business to have conversations, to learn more about the business. It's not just about that, I mean, the outcomes are there, but it's also about fostering the relationship, and fostering different ways that you could have that relationship, to come into that value conversation.

Sinéad Kenny

One story that comes to mind for me, it's aligned with what you're saying, Jen, there's a learning loop. Because law firms are doing this for lots of corporate legal teams. So, one thing that I'm seeing customers do, particularly like, on large transactions, after it's done, the law firm come in and they give advice on, look, here's how we avoid X, Y and Z, creating problems in the future. That is true partnership, and that goes so much more, more beyond costs. That's where I think law firms can really demonstrate value. So, you're totally right. Teams are getting way more creative now about what value means.

Jennifer McIver

Yeah, and I think that's where, Carlos, I'd love to bring you in on this discussion. And I know you authored an article in the AI journal about the use of AI and how that also can lead to becoming more of a strategic business partner, and I think that that includes, with law firms and with corporate legal departments as well, I've seen a lot of collaboration on innovation with AI between the two. Can you talk a little bit about that, and just your thoughts on AI and that strategic business partnership?

Carlos Gámez

AI definitely enables scale. What we're seeing right now is that legal departments are able to function as essentially the quarterbacks of policy, and they are able to set the guidelines and the guardrails, but then they are empowering the organization. And AI allows the organization to actually execute at scale, a lot of the guidelines that are set by the corporate legal department. So, it's offering a lot of scalability on the risk side. We look at the corporate legal departments, at what they do. They essentially do four things. They mitigate risk, they manage outside counsel, they practice law, and they manage people. And AI helps them do all of those four things. At the law firm side, AI is also enabling them to generate more revenue and improve their margin. Now what we've heard so far on the law firm side is a lot of focus on improving the margin. A lot of it is about applying AI to doing more work. What we haven't heard as much is in generating more business and growing that top line. And traditionally, that is what matters the most to law firms. They don't really care about the bottom line. Of course, profit per partner is the key metric. But you can always grow that by increasing the billable hour. And the reality is that we are going to start seeing a lot more applications of AI in growing that top line. There is a TAM expansion when you look at the amount of unmet need. 80% of legal need is unmet. There are 80% of people that are not getting access to legal services because either they can't afford it, they don't know how to ask for it, et cetera. Or corporations that are not requesting it because it's out of budget or because AI is enabling all of this. It is empowering procurement teams to do it themselves. It is giving access to consumers to reach out to law firms. So that scale, that growing addressable market is what AI is going to be empowering and that is often not being discussed as much. A lot of the discussion is around efficiency and around doing more. Well, that doing more is actually about allowing more people to access legal services, whether you're talking about the corporation or the consumers. And I think that is the part that needs to be talked about more.

Jennifer McIver

I like that, and I think that's a different twist. I think that's something we can look forward to absolutely. As you know, AI, with the scalability and with the availability, and frankly, the trust and credibility, moves forward. And that really brings me to some other topic that we always hear, is the billable hour gonna die? And we're not talking about that today. But the other one that I keep hearing over and over again, and I find this just fascinating, is more conversations in 2025 than ever were around KPIs. And I say I find it fascinating because I feel like we've talked about whether it's law departments, law firms or legal departments of the corporate legal teams. KPIs have been a conversation forever. I mean, I started implementing legal tech in 2012 and guess what? We were talking about, KPIs, and what should we measure? And I feel like as technology has evolved, those conversations are still the same. But I do think that we're at an inflection point now with data. And I do think that, especially, both law firms and corporate legal departments have seen a lot of need to now centralize and really look to their data, to how they're doing it. We've been collecting it for years in all different places and all different ways, and everybody wants that AI easy button, and you can't do it if the data is all over. And so, Sinéad something to you, I know that read somewhere, I think it was on LinkedIn, of course, that you had a description of data and analytics as the map and compass guiding legal operations strategy. And teams are moving from true data collection to more data literacy. And I'm just kind of curious, do you think, is that mindset shift, and is that changing their ability to collaborate more transparency with their law firms, or internally with the business? What is your thought on just how we're shifting those data conversations?

Sinéad Kenny

It's probably a culmination of everything to your first point when we started talking about the peer sharing. Everybody now is talking about what they're doing, how they're using the data that they have access to. So, I think that's certainly helped to accelerate getting more outcomes, because it's one thing to have all of the information. That's amazing, and it's really powerful, but it's only valuable when you actually make change off the back of it. And you mentioned the word mindset, Jen, and I think that's a huge thing. I think now what I'm seeing with corporate legal teams is they feel way more empowered to have conversations, to use the information. The amount of times, and I'm sure you've both heard this too, where you hear like a GC, particularly if before this, they were living in worlds of Excels, where they’d say, I had a gut feeling that something was not quite right here in terms of what was happening with the instructions to outside counsel. Now I can see it when they get to that point, and then get some guidance from whoever they're working with from peer best practices that puts them in the position, Jen, then to go and actually have that confidence and switch in mindset to have the conversations. Because ultimately, that's the point of having this data to hand. It's to make a change, to learn first and then to make change. And that's why I say it's that compass. It's like it's pointing you in the right direction to make a change for the better.

Jennifer McIver

Carlos, I've heard a contrast in conversations a lot throughout the year about sharing data collaboratively with law firms, corporate legal departments, law firms sharing their data, whether it's through KPIs, even, I think Sinéad, you mentioned scorecards earlier. But also with the continued use of the data and innovation with AI and so I'm thinking, or want to kind of delve just a little bit here before we close. Carlos, about whether you think AI and data together, whether you will see some meaningful collaboration between law firms and corporate legal departments. Or do you think that data will continue to live in silos? You know, the law firms will have their data the corporate legal departments will have theirs?

Carlos Gámez

When we started talking about collaboration, that is definitely the trend. We start seeing more information sharing. In fact, a lot of large, especially the largest corporations, are doing right now. They are right-sizing and managing, doing a better management of their panel law firms. So, they are addressing that, and they are saying, These are the law firms that I want to work with for these types of matters. So, these are my labor law firms, these are my IP law firms. And by doing this, they are making a strategic choice, essentially cleaning house and saying, These are the law firms that I'm going to be working with longer term for these type of matters. That sets the path and allows for that more strategic collaboration and information sharing, because they are making that longer term commitment. That is essentially a decision to share data longer term with those firms. From a product perspective, a lot of these law firms and corporate legal departments are going to be on the same platforms, whether it's the enterprise systems, call them the Salesforces of the world, or Workdays of the world, or legal vertical specific systems like the Legoras or Harveys of the world, a lot of these decisions are actually being pushed by the corporate legal departments. They are asking their law firms, I want you to be on the system. And same thing with their legal spend management systems. They are pushing the law firms to work on certain systems. So, there is definitely that convergence. And part of the reason is because they are expecting more data harmonization, and they want a better system of record.

Jennifer McIver

You know, I think, as I look at this, and as we talk about, you know, these conversations in 2025 and then look to 2026, personally, I think that 2026 is going to be a year of acceleration, not incremental progress. And AI, I think, clearly, is indispensable to that. And I think that legal operations team, through peer collaboration, through transparency of data, are really going to move from learning to actually leading the industry. I think even on AI, I can't believe I'm saying this, but legal leading technology revolution and the that just doesn't happen, lawyers don't like to do that. But I think that we're really going to see more agentic AI. And I do think that we're going to see more focus on consolidation of tech solutions. You mentioned being on the same platform, Carlos. I absolutely think that's going to be there for legal ops leaders, Carlos, who want to stay ahead of the curve. What do you think is one thing they should do now as they move into 2026 to avoid scrambling or being behind later?

Carlos Gámez

That's a good question. There was a post a couple of months ago from my friend Oz Benamram, he used to be the Chief Innovation Officer at Simpson Thatcher and White and Case and MoFo before, and he talked about the things that the law firm wish they had done in 2025. He talked about mapping the workflows, packaging knowledge, redesigning the services for integration, and making investments in legal infrastructure; so basically cleaning the house. And I think a lot of what law firms should be doing now, especially knowledge managers in law firms, they should be making investments in organizing their knowledge bases, setting themselves for information integration. Because a lot a lot of this information is going to be moving around, as you mentioned, Jen, through agentic systems. And it's going to be moving around multiple systems. Some of those systems will not be owned by a law firm or sitting within a law firm. Some of those systems are going to be in their clients’ infrastructure, and they need to be set in a way that it is secure and that it is bi-directional in nature, and that it can be fed back into the law firm system so that it can be synchronized and maintaining the systems of record.

Jennifer McIver

I like that. And I think I'll just keep it at that with “cleaning the house.” And I think that's important. And I've talked a lot about that this this year, about even corporate legal departments knowing where your data is, knowing what data you have, what gaps you have. Sinéad, just on everything that you've seen in 2025, what do you think will be the biggest shift for legal ops teams in 2026? Do you think it's going to be technology, process, mindset, or something else?

Sinéad Kenny

Great question, Jen, and I think it's going to be a little bit of everything, honestly. Something Carlos just said there really resonated for me. I know you were talking in the context of law firms, but I think this applies everywhere, particularly in law firms. We've all worked in tech for years, and to really get true adoption and the best out of technology. You need to set up the systems. You need to make sure that people are guided along the right way to use it in the best, the most effective way. So, I bucket that into cleaning up the house, law firms, corporate legal teams, people in tech companies, wherever – we re all going to use AI more in ’26. We need to make sure that we're set up for success. I think that's one really important thing, and I think that's going to be important for legal ops. The other thing that I think that's really important for legal ops, but actually this applies to everyone, this applies to me and my role, is mindset. The reality of it is now – Kevin in Brightflag, he always talks about this – that we have to accept that some of the skills that we've built up over the years, like, for example, Excel – someone could be an Excel whiz. In some ways, that's a bit redundant now, because now with technology, we can put in a good prompt into ChatGPT and very quickly get the results we need without having years of experience of crunching numbers in Excel. So, the mindset shift is accepting that some of the skills that we have, no longer are as relevant. And now, as we move into this new world of AI, we have to really embrace the opportunities that are there. And I think, from a legal ops perspective, it's really like elevating yourself up, using the data, using the technology. Give yourself more of a strategic edge. That's where I think legal ops will really benefit in ‘26 is leveraging those things, having the mindset, having the kind of positive attitude to say this is a new area, I'm going to be a bit vulnerable at the start. But the ones that embrace it, I think, are going to really accelerate, and at the end of ‘26 they're probably going to be standing over projects where they're really proud of what they've achieved as a result.

Jennifer McIver

I absolutely agree with you, Sinéad, and I think that what's going to be really interesting, essentially, I've been asked before: hype. What's hype? What's not hype? And AI has been just really interesting with, to me, what is hype and what's not hype. And the one thing is: agentic, AI, I think, is not hype. I think it's real. And I think it is going to take legal departments that haven't otherwise been able to do process improvements, to do automations they've wanted to do because of time, because of investment, platforms now are just putting that right into the platform and giving them the ability to do that. So, I do think, you mentioned projects to be proud of in 2026 and I think that you're going to see a lot of that. And I'm hoping, as we just circle back to everything we've talked about today, that we have so much more peer collaboration in 2026 so that way we can absolutely understand, learn, and share with each other. So, everybody's going to start having those great projects. I want to close, to say thank you for joining me today, Carlos and Sinéad. I really do appreciate your insights, and I look forward to additional conversations between us in 2026. Maybe we'll see whether agentic AI is going to take over, whether cost control is going to continue to be that top ops conversation that we didn't even hit today. And always, I want to know, is the billable hour going to die? I still do not think it will. How about you, Carlos, let's end with that. Do you think the billable hour is going to die?

Carlos Gámez

I think the billable hour can't die because it's the only way that you're going to be able to measure. You can't kill it, but you still need to measure time spent. I think value-based pricing is definitely coming. We're going to start seeing more of that, but you still need to measure and benchmark things.

Jennifer McIver

I think the billable hour’s going to be there, but I think it's just a fun conversation, and I love to rile some people up with that one because so many people have the, that's just my favorite one to get somebody going at the end of this podcast. Maybe listen to another one. But really, in all seriousness, this is an exciting time to be part of the intersection of legal and technology. So again, thank you Sinéad. Thank you, Carlos for joining and cheers to the New Year.

Sinéad Kenny

Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Jen.

Carlos Gámez

Thanks, Jen,

Greg Corombos

Thank you for tuning in to this 32nd episode of Legal Leaders Exchange. Special thanks to our host, Jennifer McIver, and our guests, Carlos and Sinéad, for sharing their candid thoughts on the current and future state of legal operations. We hope this discussion provides you with actionable insights to prepare your organization for the year ahead. To ensure you never miss an episode, please subscribe to our podcast show on your favorite podcast platform. Join us again on our next episodes for more conversations with leaders who are shaping the future of the legal industry.